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Traveller-digest           Thursday, 11 July 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 239

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Fighters and Missiles
         2. Imperial Family Stock (Td V96#236)
         3. Ship Construction Costs
         4. FF&S QuattroPro Spreadsheet
         5. Thanks, Jerry
         6. Re: Corn Dogs
         7. Re: Correction...
         8. Jump space theory, [was: Corn Dogs]
         9. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #236
        10. Re: Assorted
        11. Re: The Iridium Standard
        12. Re: Surgical Strikers
        13. Re: The Iridium Standard
        14. Re: Is the Imperium an impossibility?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 15:28:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Fighters and Missiles

Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu> wrote:

>In order to make fighters worthwhile in the Traveller universe, you need 
>to find a niche for them in the space combat spectrum of operations where 
>they are actually a better alternative to larger, more heavily armed ships.

I've found that they're useful primarily as recon platforms.  They can be
flown out from a fleet to the edges of detection range to try and spot the
enemy before the enemy finds the core ships of the fleet.  Then fighters
may end up fighting each other as each side tries to knock out the other
fleet's "eyes".  They also can be used in a pinch to try and clear small
escorts such as missile corvettes.  The capital ships are not their main
problem, and in TNE they can't do much against them anyway.

In this sense, having a lot of small fighting ships with good sensors is
useful.  Sensor drones have their place, too, but fighters can be pressed
into a few more uses (such as ortillery support). 

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>


------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 16:48:12 -0400
Subject: Imperial Family Stock (Td V96#236)

Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote:
> Joe Walsh wrote:
> >Hmmm...if I recall correctly, the Imperial ruling family has a bit of 
> >stock in a number of megacorps.  
> 
> I therefor decided that the lone exception was a misprint and
> that in my campaign the "price" of a LIC charter is giving 2% of the company
> to the Emperor. This share cannot be sold or otherwise transferred. 

It's not a misprint, it's an adventure hook!  :-)

I'd also suggest that (legally speaking) the Imperial Family's stock can be
sold or transferred ... but that doing so is considered to be such an
indication of Imperial displeasure with the company (or a sign that the
Emperor believes the company's failure is imminent) that most non-MegaCorps
would find it hard to do business afterward.

wildstar@qrc.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                "Once upon a time, a junkman had a dream ..."

------------------------------

From: "Andrew Wardell" <wardell@m1.sprynet.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 17:29:14 +0000
Subject: Ship Construction Costs

Does there exist, or has anyone given any thought to the COST of ship 
construction, as opposed to its PRICE?
How much of the 'purchase price' of a starship is materials/labor and how much 
is profit?  If a government owns a shipyard outright, it seems that logically 
they would be able to build ships for less than 'blue-book' price.

Also, any thoughts on how long (in man-hours) it takes to build a starship, or 
what facilities are needed to do so?

Oh yeah, and is there a canon figure for the price discount for a 
"standard-design" starship?


Andrew Wardell
wardell@sprynet.com
(Yes, I have a web page, but it's not worth checking out...yet)

"Aside from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"

------------------------------

From: "Andrew Wardell" <wardell@m1.sprynet.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 17:29:14 +0000
Subject: FF&S QuattroPro Spreadsheet

Although it by definition pretty much obsolete, I have just finished a beta 
version of a ship-design spreadsheet for Quattro Pro v6.0, and would like to 
ask those of you with Quattro Pro to try it out and get me some feedback.

It's located at:
http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/wardell/awhobby.htm

I know this isn't any use to you Excel users out there, but then again, the 
Excel QSDS sheet is of no use to me...

A couple of things to note:
This is NOT QSDS/SSDS compliant.  I haven't gotten WordPerfect to translate the 
MSWord version of QSDS, and haven't gotten around to downloading the 2+meg for 
the Wordperfect 5 version.  I will make sure it is QSDS compliant(if possible), 
after I've poked around with those rules.

The spreadsheet was built with the first printing of FF&S, and I haven't been 
able to get my hands on a copy of Challenge #75 for the "First Printing to 
Second Printing Upgrade" article, so there may be slight differences in the way 
things are implemented (If anyone with Challenge #75 can email me the relevant 
info from the article, I'd be appreciative.)

Any problems you do find, I need to know about so that I can fix them.  The 
project is large enough that there are bound to be things that were missed or 
that I thought I corrected and didn't.

Aside from that, it does seem to be able to cover most types of ship design 
fairly well....

I am particularly interested in whether it is comprehensible to 
non-gearheads...



Andrew Wardell
wardell@sprynet.com
(Yes, I have a web page, but it's not worth checking out...yet)

"Aside from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"

------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 11 Jul 96 14:29:41 MS
Subject: Thanks, Jerry

Today and tomorrow are back-up day here at work, as we prepare to set up 100 
new PCs for development next week.  I was cleaning out a bunch of my old mail 
files, and of course started reading some old TML posts.  In the middle of one 
of those much-unlamented Phil Pugliese flame wars back in February, Jerry 
Alexandratos wrote

>...As for Bzrk, well, he's taking the great dirt nap and
>chasing his tail in puppy heaven.

For some reason, that caused me to begin giggling hysterically, which made a 
number of people come out of their backup-day comas and actually start moving 
around and acting like humans again.  

I'm not sure why, but things taken out of context like this quote really lend a 
sense of goofiness to myday.  Hopefully somebody out there will be amused as 
well.

------------------------------

From: muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com (John Kovalic)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 17:25:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Corn Dogs

>
>From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
>Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 12:02:01 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Re: Corn Dogs
>
>Thus spake muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com (John Kovalic):
>
>> It was thus said:
>
>[previous discussion snipped]
>
>> My own beef with the Corn Dogs comes from the sheer number of 20th century
>         ^^^^
>Is that some sort of bad joke?

My favorite kind of joke -- a bad one! :-)


>> referrences found in later Traveler material. Would a civilization
>> X-hundred years from now *really* still be obsessed by late 20th-century
>> junk (read "pop") culture? It struck me as being damn culturally
>> self-centered. For me, the whole mystique of the Imperium broke down on
>> such pieces of pop-centricism. Especially the Monty Python referrences. And
>> I'm a Monty Python FAN!
>
>Well, so what if it's culturally self-centered?

Nothing at all, if you buy it. I just find I need a little more "zap" and
"wow" in my SF than referrences to corn dogs and Monty Python. To each
their own taste. (Again, no pun intended). I just prefer more mystery and
less corn dogs. :-)

John Kovalic






******************************************************************
"This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                     - Arthur Dent
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*                 "Wild Life": a Web comic --                    *
*       MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/    *
******************************************************************




------------------------------

From: gsw@aloft.att.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 19:01:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Correction...

On Thursday, July 11, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
> Nope. The "rule of thumb" is that *3* km/s give you the energy of an
> equivalent amount of TNT. 

My correction stands corrected. That explains the factor of 3
difference (BTW, my calculations show the break-even point at
2.89km/s). The 5km/s "rule of thumb" was given in Grolier's
encyclopedia. Considering that energy rises with the square
of velocity, that's one heck of a rounding error. :-)

On a related topic:

I must have wasted over an hour trying to find out how many
joules were released by 1 ton of TNT. I looked through text
books, encyclopedias, etc. to no avail. The next time I had
access to the Web, I used AltaVista and found it in under 2
minutes! From now on, the Web's the *first* place I'm going
to look for *any* kind of obscure information.

- -O Gerald Williams / Bell Laboratories - PAI830 55E-224 O-
- -O gsw@lucent.com /   1247 South Cedar Crest Boulevard  O-
- -O (610)712-3370 /          Allentown, PA  18103        O-
- -O -------------/ "Innovations for Lucent Technologies" O-



------------------------------

From: Tommy Grav <tommyg@ifi.uio.no>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 01:58:22 +0200
Subject: Jump space theory, [was: Corn Dogs]

That Computer Guy wrote: 
> : > Actually, I think that they were planning on changing the way jump
> : > drives worked.  This is why you now need fuel as coolant and it's used
> : > up during the jump instead of all at once.  Yes, this aspect of TNE was
> : > suppossed to invalidate SOM.
> : >
> : A whole new problem there, J-space pollution! Leftover Hydrogen molecules
> : from ship coolant could eventually make frequently used traderoutes
> : unusable (say maybe over a couple of decades-centuries).
> 
> And since when has the military or commercial intrests cared about the
> envrionment?  8)
> 
> Seriously though, we don't know what effects it'll have on j-space.  For
> all we know, it may have none.  I'm not saying that it was a perfect
> solution, I'm just saying that it didn't break "canon."  Technically,
> every version of Traveller says that the most recently published
> material supercedes any prior version when there's a rules or
> description discrepancy.

I was thinking about this and found something I think I will use in my campaign.
Since fuel is needed during the jump, I assume it is needed to hold the ship in
J-space. That means that to stay in J-space, "real world" matter needes a stable 
bubble, lets call it a J-bubble. I would think that going to "real" space from
J-space would involve some kind of radiation outburst. Therefor why not let fuel 
used during jump be ventet out of the ship into the J-bubble. As the ship moves 
so will the J-bubble and eventually the hydrogen molecules/atoms will reach the 
border of the J-bubble and leave it. As it leaves the J-bubble it is "thrown"
into "real" space, where it radiates a distinctive pattern, calles J-radiation.
A special sensor could then be designed to pick up this extremly faint (I quess
we are talking a few atoms per meter) radiation as a trail after the ship travelling
in J-space. 

Any comments????


- -- 
Tommy Grav 
Email: tommyg@ifi.uio.no
WWW-Page: http://www.ifi.uio.no/~tommyg/Traveller.html
"Sooner or later the worst set of circumstances are bound to occur."

------------------------------

From: Les Howie <lhowie@novalis.ca>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 20:59:12 -0300
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #236

John Kovalic wrote
>
>Well, this is a cute line but the cost and carnage of the First World War
>did far more to destroy the Empire in reality and (perhaps more
>importantly) in people's eyes...
>

A defensible point of view, although I do not exactly agree.  My
Traveller-related point is that the collapse of the European empires was NOT
related to poor communications: in fact, they expanded most rapidly at the
same time in which their communication was at its worst.

My own 2c. on the collapse of the European empires has more to do with the
We vs. Them attitude which that particular breed of Imperialism promoted:
The high minded civilized trustees of the poor benighted savages/colonists.
The American put up with it the longest -- they revolted first.  Canada had
two rebellions before Victoria had her throne properly warm, and two more by
the Metis later on.  The Indians tried to evict them, so did the Chinese.  

Interestingly, the wide lattitude local governments in the third imperium in
determining local afairs suggests a very different attitude on the part if
the Imperial central government.  Unless you are really intent on nuking
your neighbours, the Third Imperium is more like a ticket taker on the front
door of the universe then a conventional goverment.
Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
NovaLIS Technologies
Halifax NS
lhowie@novalis.ca


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 19:45:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Assorted

On Thu, 11 Jul 1996 gdw.support@genie.com wrote:

[Several replies snipped to save space]
> 
> Marc and Frank had a time-table for the FFW, but it wasn't the result
> of any game-play.

Ah.  In one of the intrerviews Marc gave he mentioned that Traveller: 
2300's political situation was the result of a game played amongst the 
GDW staff for the express purpose of creating the T:2300 world.  I'd 
wondered if FFW had a similar history.  Thanks for letting me know! :)

[more snipped]
> > 3) Niven & Pournelle First and Second Imperium.
> 
> We were all Niven fans, and Known Space was part of the same
> background mentioned above. Frank likes Pournelle slightly less than
> Marc and I do, but he was also part of the background.

I've never read a piece of fiction by Niven nor Pournelle (though I do 
enjoy Pournelle's column in _Byte_).  My wife likes their stuff, though.  I 
should probably read some of the book she has that are by them.  Might 
prove helpful in understanding the Imperium, eh? :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 20:06:54 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: The Iridium Standard

On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, Charles Pratt wrote:

> The real question is, would this matter?  Anyone on a particular planets
> stock/whatever market would hear news at ostensibly the same time---that
> is, minimum jump time from the news source.  In essence, everyone will
> hear the tree fall at the same time.  It doesn't matter that the
> information happened six months ago, those on the same planet will learn
> this information at the same time and act on it.

Right.  And those on every other planet will hear it at the same time as 
well.  Example:  

Week 0:  Sternmetal Horizons, LIC's corporate headquarters is rocked with 
scandal.  On the HQ planet, the stock price drops like a rock.  People 
caught unawares suffer heavy paper losses, as the value of the stock they 
hold decreases dramatically.  Some sell at the lower price, others hold 
on hoping Sternmetal can redeem itself.  The original traders that sold 
and started the freefall in price made out OK, though.

Week 1:  A Free Trader carries the information to Dumbo's World, which is 
one parsec away from HQ.  The people there hear about the scandal and the 
drop in stock price, and they sell like mad as well.  Assuming the stock 
exchage on this world doesn't update its prices based on other worlds' 
trading prices (an unlikely thing given communications lag and the number 
of worlds involved!), all this means is that the same stock price 
scenario happens here as on the HQ world.

Week 2:  The same Free Trader carries the information to Windex World, 
which is two parsecs away from HQ and one from Dumbo's World.  The 
information is relayed, and the same scenario happens.

Week 1(again):  A Fast Trader (capable of Jump-3) gets to a world three 
parsecs from HQ, one from Windex World, and two from Dumbo's World.  Even 
in this case, the same scenario reoccurs.

So, I can't see the communications lag affecting anything in a 
free-market economy.  Currency exchanges, boards of trade, stocks, 
bonds...it would all be treated the same way.  


> I see, then, trading within the Imperium not as specific and absolute
> blocks, but more like a bunch of pebbles tossed in a pond (to wax
> philosophical for a moment).  Trading based on this system would be very
> complex---it is concievable (and probable) that the market crashes on
> the spinward side of the Imperium and booms on the trailward side, etc.

Right.  


> I also see a ton of possiblities for adventures for trading characters.
> And a stronger role for more organized corsiars.  Two ideas based on this
> line of reasoning: Corsairs delay a(n) x-boat and then make a killing on
> another market with the information only they have.  Or, enterprising
> characters set up an arbitage system, and try to make a killing...

Good thought!  The old scam of holding up the telegraphed information 
will work once again!  Whee!  :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 18:17:42 -0700
Subject: Re: Surgical Strikers

At 01:32 PM 7/11/96 -0400, R. Michael Stephens wrote:

>> Derek Stanley wrote
>> David Jaques-Watson wrote:
>> > 
>> > Are there other options?
>> Honestly I've never considered the Marines (bunch of guy's in 
>> battledress) a surgical strike team.  No offence to any Marine's out 
>> there.  The Marines are an elite beachhead assault force who's primary 
>> focus in traveller is ship board duties including boarding actions and 
>> primary DZ securing.  Along with this you could potentially throw in 
>> pacification campaigns.  Not wanting to start the flame war again but the 
>> Marine's are the Imperium's "Big Stick" of ground combat.

In regimental strength, the Imperial Marines represent the Imperium's main
striking force, but there had better be some 500k-ton transports filled with
the Army to back them up.

If you drop a squad or so, however, the Marines are a dagger.  They can hit
fast and hard, taking out Grand Poobah for Eternity Fred before the first
bite of breakfast has passed his lips.  Or, scout out probable meson sites,
or try to seize the starport traffic control center.. The casulties are
high, but the glory is great, and the uniform really helps pick up dates.


>In the US -
>Marines -- Force Recon, and Recon Sniper Teams

Sniper teams are assigned to the regiments.. used on a situational basis.

>Army    -- Rangers, Special Forces, (veitnam and _non_ elite) LRRP

I know several ex-LRRPs how will debate that..  Rangers specialize in recon
ops and company sized raids.  SF are teachers, the go in and organize
indigenous troops.

>Air Force -- Air Commandoes (primarily IIRC mission airfield capture 
>airhead establishment.

I don't think the Air Force still has the Air Commandos

>British SAS, French Forign Legion Paras, USSR Spetznatz etc etc etc

Germany's GSG9  
>
>> the Surgical Strike team 
>> would be point laser designators infiltrated on a planet months before 
>> the strike occured, these would be the guy's in charage of insuring that 
>> "Mortimer Crane, Supreme Dictator of Gault and Generalisimo for life" has 
>> an unfortunate accident on his way to the prom.  I think the main point 
>> of a surgical strike team is if they can get in and get out without 
>> firing a shot they've done their job correctly, if they get into a fire 
>> fight they've screwed it up royally.
>
>All usually true especially the last, although sometimes the job is to 
>make as much ruckus as possible as a diversion.  The military, esp. US, 
>has an unfortunate tendancy to forget the above and think they have super 
>soliders and use them incorrectly or ineffectivley.  Check out the 
>coareers of the Rangers in WWII.

Point of order:  The Rangers were mis-used by the higher levels of command,
especially at Anzio, where the 2nd Ranger Battalion was all but destroyed.
Rangers are not light infantry, they don't carry enough support weapons to
fill that role.

In other actions, Point du Hoc most notably, when Rangers were used in their
Special Warfare role, they performed with distinction.

In the Gulf War, *12* Navy Seals raised such a ruckus in Kuwait City as the
ground phase began; that the Iraqi general in command radioed Baghdad in the
clear that he was being overrun by at least two USMC Divisions!

I think that the "dirty tricks brigade" would be mostly Scouts, who are
skilled at infiltrating.

>For a much better discussion than I can give, esp in an RPG perspective 
>check out GURPS Special OPs, even if you hate the system there is alot of 
>great info and flavor there. 

Also, the Merc: 2000 system had a Special Operations handbook, can't recall
the name right now.  The ultimate guide to special ops and dirty tricks has
to be Richard Marchinko's -Rogue Warrior- books.  This guy *is* a Traveller
character.

>The Imperial marines would tend to have their own such units although 
>many smaller ships complments might need to be a bit more trained in this 
>respect than we would see today.  Tho' these guys tend to  not make great 
>spit-n-polish soldiers!

A Marine takes pride in his apperance, more so around the Enemy (Imperial
Navy).  Since Marines tend to see themselves as an elite, they tend to try
to out-do everyone.  My image of Imperial Marine organization is that every
numbered Fleet has two Regiments assigned to it.  The regiments trade off
between training and fleet cycles.  At changeover, ships turn over their
Marine compliments.

+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|             Now Appearing At:              |
| http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/duckpage.htm |
| "Nothing concentrates the military mind so |
|     much as the discovery that you have    |
| walked into an ambush."  -Thomas Packenham |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 20:22:36 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: The Iridium Standard

On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> On 07/10/96 at 08:53 PM,  Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
> said:
> >The real question is, would this matter?  Anyone on a particular
> >planets stock/whatever market would hear news at ostensibly the same
> >time---that is, minimum jump time from the news source. 
> 
> Ah, but would they?  You're assuming a level playing field, and with
> money on the table nobody plays all that fair.  If I can get news/info
> about outside conditions a few days, even hours, before more
> competition then I'll have an advantage.  On X-boat routes that might
> not be possible, but not every planet is on those routes, and the
> X-boats weren't there throughout the entire 3rd Imperium.

Some people will therefore have "insider information."  That is true 
today.  It is illegal in the US, nevertheless it happens that people 
trade on insider information - and I don't doubt that most go uncaught.  

Perhaps, in the Far Future, acquiring trading information prior to its 
public release, then trading based on that information, will be illegal 
as well.



- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 20:29:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Is the Imperium an impossibility?

On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Romans built their roads, and the Mongols had, what amounted to, a
> pony express network.

When I learned of the psuedo pony-express network the Mongols used, I was 
delighted.  It's one of those tidbits that should be taught in basic history 
classes (to whet the students' apetites), but aren't (at least not in the 
ones I took).

> >Can someone provide figures for the time lag from the seat of these 
> >empires to the furthest reaches, at their greatest?  
> 
> Two months?  <g> Ok, I'm guessing, but once the road system was in
> place Roman couriers on horseback or chariot could cover at least 50
> miles a day, and 50*60=3000 miles!  The Mongols really did have a pony
> express system setup, and rapid movement was one of their hallmarks.

Until someone provides better figures, we can go with 2 months.  So, the 
size of the Imperium was governed by how far the fastest ship could 
travel in two months - if we take our assumptions for fact.  That would 
peg Imperial expansion to new developments in jump drive technology.  
During times between those developments, the Imperium's borders would 
stay relatively stable.  Expansion beyond the two-month area would be 
short-lived at best.

Unless, of course, there were local governments which were given wide 
latitude in ruling.  In that case, you could have 
2-month-travel-time-diameter circles of power all over the place.  Sorry, 
I don't recall whether this was the case with the Sector Dukes. Were they 
petty much autonomous?


> These Empires all gave a good deal of control to local governors
> rather than trying to govern from the center.  

Ah, yes!  That must be it, then.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #239
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